General Technology,
Season 1,

Episode 108 – It’s a Podcast, About Video

March 01, 2018

Rob and Roy discuss video marketing and provide three tips for video quality, including when providing telehealth services. They are joined by video marketing expert, Ernesto Segismundo, who discusses the important facets of effective video marketing.

  • – Ernesto Segismundo’s web site, providing information about his services as well as free forums and resources about video marketing.
  • Video Presentation Skills Course (PCT) – Roy’s course on techniques and standards for using videoconferencing in telemental health delivery.


Show Notes
  • :15

    Hyping video…on a podcast?

  • 2:34

    How to get video onto a web site

  • 6:39

    YouTube vs. Vimeo

  • 10:00

    Video on Facebook

  • 13:41

    Guest Spot – Ernesto Segismundo – Effective Video Marketing

  • 32:53

    Describe Question – Ernesto, what is the difference between “good” and “great”?

  • 37:43

    Three Tips – Production Details in Telehealth

  • 38:54

    Tip One – Camera Placement


    Tip Two – Optimizing Sound

  • 49:15

    Tip Three – Lighting

  • 52:39


Episode Transcript
Rob: Therapy Tech with Rob and Roy. The most fun therapists can have listening to a podcast about technology.  
This episode of Therapy Tech with Rob and Roy, is brought to you by and You have questions about technology, we have answers.  
Roy: Welcomed to Season 1, Episode 8. So, Therapy Tech with Rob and Roy. I believe this one is subtitle, Video Killed the Radio Star, because we're gonna talk about video today. I am Roy, and I'm here with-  
Rob: Rob.  
Roy: Hey, Rob. How are you doing today?  
Rob: I'm doing okay. Well, I could do with less rain and [inaudible 00:00:47] weather. But otherwise, things are good. [crosstalk 00:00:50].  
Roy: You clearly-  
Rob: This is your weather.  
Roy: Yeah. You don't live where I live buddy.  
Rob: I know.  
Roy: Maybe that's a good thing, if you're not feeling so good about that.  
Rob: It's okay. On occasion. It's not good to have that rainy day, you want to stay in bed feeling, when it's Monday and you gotta get going, and get to work, and record a fun podcast with your colleague.  
Roy: Yeah. Good. They're good. You can hear Rob's state management there. He initially was like, "Yeah. It's okay. I mean, I got to do a podcast."  
Well, it is kind of ironic, we're here on our podcast talking about video.  
Rob: It would sound ironic, and there's layers, because of podcast technically started as video.  
Roy: Wow, you're right.  
Rob: [inaudible 00:01:32].  
Roy: [inaudible 00:01:34].  
Rob: Some people may not know, we started this ... what? 3, 4 years ago on Google Hangouts, [inaudible 00:01:41] see the videos on YouTube.  
Roy: Right.  
Rob: And then turned out later on ... Then we got busy, and then we're like, hey, we should do that again, except people would rather be a podcast. So why the heck are we talking about video?  
Roy: Exactly. Right. We're going to talk about how valuable video is to marketing, and online therapy, and all this. And why it's so essential in our podcast that we switch to away from video, because people prefer this. Okay. Well, it's true though.  
Rob: But believe us. Believe us.  
Roy: Believe us. No, really. No, really, guys. Don't do as we do, do as we say.  
It is true though, it's true. Video Marketing, it's not like everyone has to have video all the time or something, but when done right it's actually really valuable. And so we get to talk about it, we're going to talk about the big value of video when you do it right. So, we're going to give you some tips. And we might have a guest who knows a thing or two about video for therapy websites.  
Rob: We tend to be lucky in that area.  
Roy: We are so lucky. That's true.  
Rob: Yeah. [inaudible 00:02:35].  
Roy: Well, okay, here is ... let's start with a little basic question though, Rob, I want to throw at you.  
Rob: [inaudible 00:02:38]  
Roy: I won't aim at your head, ll aim for the trunk. Okay. So here's the thing, people are interested in video, what goes into video, all that. But they're also often curious, how the heck do I get a video into my web presence, on my website, or my Facebook, or ... What does that technically look like? So, help us understand what it looks like to put videos on the web.  
Rob: Yes. First, to jump back to what we were saying, okay, why are we talking about video if we're doing a podcast? It's all about what your goals are, and your audience. I think podcasts works for what we are talking about, because we talk about some pretty engaging deep subjects that require some time to talk about. And we have a set audience that wants to hear about technology, and listen to that discussion.  
Whereas, when you're talking about making videos to connect with clients and potential clients, you're talking about people who are looking for quick blurbs, people that are looking to make a connection with you in pretty short order. And so you're turning around for a shorter timeframe, and also needing that additional dimension in being-  
Roy: Yeah. That makes sense. That's really insightful actually. Well done there, Rob.  
Rob: Thanks.  
So now, we've got to figure out, okay, that's great, I get what you're saying, but how the heck do you put the video up? How do you get in where somebody is going to see it?  And I think you said the two primary places you're going to make that happen are on your website, or Facebook, or people using Facebook marketing, I guess Twitter, video's a thing on Twitter now, though [crosstalk 00:04:12].  
Roy: Oh, yeah. They're really .... I heard. Right.  
Rob: I heard too many people in our field are utilizing yet, but it's certainly a possibility. And part of this goes back to what I saying about, what is your goal? How are you connecting with people? So, you might want to listen to one of our initial podcasts about Internet marketing, where we talking about brand, advertising, and things like that.  
Roy: Although, I actually recommend that people listen to every podcast we ever do.  
Rob: Yeah, yeah.  
Roy: Right.  
Rob: But if you're looking for one that connects directly to this one, maybe jump to that one, and then make sure you get all the others.  
Roy: Okay. Fine. Okay. But yeah, I agree. You're right. That one should be the one to listen to.  
Rob: And the reason why that's important is, what you're trying to accomplish may determine what platform you're trying to do this on.  
Roy: Okay. I hear you.  
Rob: If you're trying to connect it, yeah, you want to have this video on your website, hey, this is a video of me showing you who I am, so your client can connect with me, establish that initial rapport, you're probably going to upload it to either YouTube or Vimeo. And then use a Plug-in, where if you have a web designer who knows how to code things that allows us to pull that video in, and show it on your website.  
Roy: Tell us real quick what a plug-in is.  
Rob: Yes. So, a plug-in is this basically, an additional short line or lines of code that can be ... So [crosstalk 00:05:33].  
Roy: I have to write code?  
Rob: Yes, you do. You do.  
So a plug-in is a product that you can get, that already has the code written. Often WordPress, most people are familiar with WordPress, their websites are likely developed in WordPress. And WordPress has what are called plug-ins. So, basically modules, or add-on functionality that you can download. Sometimes you have to purchase it, sometimes not. That will provide additional features that WordPress doesn't come with ... provide natively.  
Roy: Hang there, Rob. I'm going to tell you a secret.  
If you take the web address of a Vimeo video or a YouTube video, just copy the web address, and just paste it right into your editing box on WordPress, WordPress will automatically turn it into the video embed.  
Rob: Awesome.  
Roy: That's kind of new [inaudible 00:06:18] in the core software.  
Rob: So why would we need to plug in any more then?  
Roy: You kind of don't. Although you might because it's kind of clumsy. I mean, it doesn't have any special features you can't configure anything about it.  
Rob: Right. So it comes back to, hey, how much functionality do you need? So plug-in will probably add features like allowing you to resize the size of the video box.  
Roy: Exactly. Right.  
Rob: I know a big thing for addressing YouTube videos that you embed is, you may not want them to show other videos at the end. So, one of the things that YouTube does when you watch a video at the end, it will show you this box of six, or seven, or whatever other videos that are related to that video. But you have no control over what those videos are, and so there is a way to make sure that doesn't happen. Most of the plug-ins will have a little box for you to check to turn that off.  
Roy: I think you can turn it off at the actual ... If you go to the video page on YouTube, I think you can turn it off there as well.  
Rob: Oh, is that new?  
Roy: Yeah. I think that's there as well. I could be wrong about that, but I think it is.  
Rob: I'm surprised YouTube would let you do it that easily.  
Roy: That's a good point actually. But-  
Rob: Because they want you ... That's their whole thing, hey, we want you to go from video to video, and bring in advertising dollars, and all that fun stuff.  
Roy: So then, I'm watching like late night television shows on my therapist website in their embed window?  
Rob: Right.  
But then you don't want to ... somebody come to your website, see your video, and then they're suddenly connected to ... I don't know. Think of the most terrible advertisement you can think of, and that's what shows up after your video. Or links to ... I guess it wouldn't be bad to have it linked to cat videos or something, but obviously-  
Roy: Yeah. Or a video cat eating a Tied Pod, or something like that.  
Rob: Yeah. So here you are you're, then you're connecting with this client, they've seen your video, "Hey, I might call this therapist ..." "Oh, but there's a cat video." And then they're gone.  
Roy: Oh, cat videos are better.  
Rob: Yeah. Although the other side by the way is, if you have uploaded a ton of your videos to YouTube that you might leave the feature on, because then it might show people some of your other videos [crosstalk 00:08:22].  
Roy: True. Yeah. If you have your channel- [crosstalk 00:08:17] It depends on [inaudible 00:08:24].  
Rob: Yeah. You could have your own channel with multiple videos. Yeah, you're probably going to get those linked at the end, and you may want people to follow on to these videos. Yeah, absolutely. Of course.  
Roy: Of course, you may not, you may not want them to. That's the other thing to consider. You may want them to just watch yours and just stay focused on that.  
Rob: Right. We mentioned Vimeo, similar concept to YouTube, except it's more of a paid service with less of the advertising. Advertising is an option there I understand. I've not used Vimeo as much, but the key there is, hey, you're going to have this paid account, you don't get all the focus on bouncing to other videos that you do in YouTube.  
Roy: That's right. Yeah, we use Vimeo with Person-Centered Tech. And a big reason we use Vimeo is that, I can tell it to only allow embedding of the video on certain websites. So I can tell it, don't let someone embed our video in a different website.  
Rob: Right.  
Roy: So, only let it go if it's embedded in a page.  
Most of our people don't need that, because there isn't a lot of risk of someone trying to take your video embedded in their page. And of course, if you brand your video, maybe that's not the worst thing. Often, that's not what you want though.  
Rob: The catch there is, having control over who embeds it. You may get a lot benefits from multiple people embedding it because that's great, that's more people seeing you. But then there may be certain places you don't want to be embedded for one reason or another.  
Roy: Exactly. Yeah. Because, I mean, sometimes videos will have different intentions, right? You don't necessarily want the video that introduces who you are to be embedded somewhere else, or the video you made ... And where are you doing a guided meditation, may not actually give you much value as somebody else embeds it on their site.  
Which also she brings up the Facebook thing, right? So, what kind of video would I want to put on Facebook for Facebook Ads, as opposed to on my website.  
Rob: Right. I think you can probably speak better to what might be affective in Facebook Ads because I know you've done a lot of work there. With Facebook, you're definitely looking at more brand advertising videos.  
Roy: Yeah. You're looking at brand advertising, and you're also trying to potentially capture interest, right? So with Facebook, you've got to get a lot more results by putting up video that solves some problem, that gives some useful piece of information. Like maybe, you do that guided meditation video there, or something like that. But you've got to be really careful about not giving medical advice or actionable advice in these videos, like maybe [crosstalk 00:10:47].  
Rob: You are claiming expertise that you don't have, and things like that.  
Roy: Yeah, exactly. Stay in your [inaudible 00:10:53] expertise-  
Rob: Or results, guaranteeing any kind of results.  
Roy: Oh, God, don't do that. Really tight. Yeah, never do that, especially, not in a video.  
Rob: Yeah. So there ... Whereas, on your website, you've got somebody already there, they're obviously looking at you for potentially utilizing your services. You're trying to connect with them on Facebook, you're just trying to draw attention, hey, come check this out. Recognize me in my brand as someone who knows these things.  
Roy: And make sure your brand is there. Make sure it's in the video. That's very clear, like something that you want to make sure they know how to find you, you have a call to actions that brings them right to you, and expect that people won't act on that video the first time they see it.  
Rob: So, you're talking about, hey, maybe having a landing page on your website that directly connects with what that video is talking about?  
Roy: That's exactly what I'm talking about.  
That's pretty important. Generally, people will start to take action on Ads like that after they've had several positive contacts with you. And so, the classic advertising model is that when you put a video like that on Facebook, what you're trying to do is, generate X-positive contacts with people. So that people who are your audience, the ones who are likely to have a good therapeutic match with you, are people that see your video, and positively respond to it, and then they see it, or they see videos, or just things from you that give them that positive contact with, least like seven times. Because then they'll think of you like that, you'll become the first one they think of if they say, "I want that," or they'll be more inclined to trust your call to action to go to your website and contact you, if they're already feeling like they could use a therapist or use your help. So, that's often what you do in there.  
Rob: Somehow, I'd be curious to hear ... maybe similar listeners can weigh in on this, is if people have effectively used Facebook Live for these sorts of things. I've done some Facebook Live videos, but not in a brand marketing vein. So, I'd be curious if anybody's effectively used that to engage their audiences. Because my assumption is, for Facebook Live to be effective, you kind of already have to have built an audience, and have some kind of goal in mind for doing that Facebook Live video.  
Roy: That's my understanding as well. Right.  
Now, you might have built up a Facebook audience through contact with your stuff, because you can build up Facebook audiences that are literally ... You tell Facebook, the audience that I'm going to show this thing to, show it to everyone who has interacted with my Ads in the last 30 days.  
Rob: Sure.  
Roy: So you have an audience through that. It's just people who've been interacting with your stuff, and then now, this year Facebook Live.  
You can do things like that. But I think it's more effective if you can promote it as it's coming up as well. You know, it would be pretty cool if there was somebody who knew a lot about these stuff, Facebook Live, or anything like that, or even just what you might put into your videos. That'd be great.  
Rob: I think it would. Yeah. I think having some insight from somebody who's made a lot of these videos, and can talk to the true usefulness of them.  
Roy: I wish we could just find somebody like that around here.  
Rob: I know.  
Roy: Oh, hey. I think there's someone out the door, Rob. Who is it?  
Rob: It's your turn to check. You go and see.  
Roy: Oh, I'll go see.  Who's at the door?  
Hey, it's Ernesto Segismundo. The big expert on video and therapy marketing.  
Rob: Ernesto from  
Roy: Yeah. That's the same Ernesto.  
Rob: That's awesome.  
Roy: Hey, Rob. What's this, tame your practice thing you do?  
Rob: The big thing we're known for, are the reviews of the AHR practice management systems, and helping people identify the right technology for their practice. But I also help people with marketing and business decisions. When to grow into a group, what kind of business to be, how to deal with contractors versus employees, and all that fun stuff. What do you do Roy over at Person-Centered Tech?  
Roy: Well, we write a ton of articles, which are really free for you to go check out. But we also do person centered tech support, which is our full membership service, where 4 times a month I get on for 90 minutes, 4 office hours, and you can ask me anything you want, or you can ask me a question ahead of time, we'll record it, and you can watch the recording later. We also have nine and a half hours a CE courses, which are APA and NDCC approved.  
Rob: Wow, that sounds awesome.  
Roy: So does your practice.  
Hey, everybody. We are super excited to have Ernesto Segismundo here. Ernesto is basically the guy who does the videos. You should probably seen him. He's with Fylmit, which is not spelled the way you think it is. Ernesto, can you make sure we know how to spell Fylmit?  
Ernesto: F-Y-L-M-I-T.  
Roy: Great. So, F-I-L-M-I-T, right?  
Ernesto: Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I Had to actually pull it up to ...  
Roy: You're like, I forgot how to spell my own company name. Okay.  
Well, Ernesto is actually here to help us talk about marketing with video.  
Ernesto: I'm so freaking excited you guys.  
Roy: Yeah, I am too. So good to see you, man.  
Ernesto: Me too.  
Roy: Okay. So, we got a couple questions, let's jump in. Rob, give us the first question.  
Rob: Oh, yes. Questions. We like questions. Are you ready Ernesto?  
Ernesto: I am so freaking ready right now.  
Rob: I'm just excited too exited to be talking to you here now. I think it was Colorado, the last time I got to you.  
Roy: Yeah. Colorado.  
Ernesto: Yeah. Was that two years ago?  
Roy: Yeah.  
Rob: Something like that.  
Ernesto: Yes.  
Rob: Way to long.  
Ernesto: Something like that. Way too long  
Rob: So, tell us Ernesto, you've been doing this for a while, and helping therapists all over the country, what is it that makes communication and marketing through videos so powerful?  
Ernesto: Ever since I started doing the whole video marketing thing, some of the research that are coming out about videos is just incredibly promising for the mental health community. Now, if you think about it from a perspective where, when your clients come and see you, they're engaged with you from verbal, visual, and just the energy that you give out, right?  
Now, one of the things that I ... The challenging things about what I do is try to translate that on the video scene. And so, I think when people watch video, it increases their engagement from a visual psychological. And the energy that they get from you through all of those means is a very powerful way to engage with their clients, or your potential clients, or whoever's watching your video, right?  
And the more you show who you are, your authenticity, the energy that you give out, the more likely that they will buy your service, schedule an appointment, because lo and behold, people love working with other human beings, right? And therapists ... right? Right?  
Roy: No.  
Ernesto: Seriously. And videos is a really fun way to kind of show the human side, and the human branding that comes with your service or your business.  
Roy: Wow. Do I have to be like super good at lighting? I mean, I am of course, a trained actor myself, but not everybody who's listening to this is an actor Ernesto. How can we do what you're talking about?  
Ernesto: Absolutely. With the new technology that we have nowadays, there is absolutely no darn excuse not to do videos. No. Because if you notice, the most viewed videos are the authentic ones. When someone is outdoors, when the lighting is bad, but they are funny, they show themselves. Of course, you've got to do it ethically and legally obviously. But there's two ways to go about videos  
professionally done videos with lighting, and hire someone just like me to do your videos, right? Sorry for the flag guys, but ...  
Roy: No, that's fine, man.  
Ernesto: But the other form is what they call video blogging nowadays, where you just put a camera in front of you, and you just speak, and talk, and talk to your clients, or talk to your target audience. It could be outdoors, it could be indoors.You just have to tap into your creativity to pull this off.  
Roy: Wow.  
Rob: What about the people who are considering say, I don't feel creative, and I'm afraid to be on the camera, what do they do to break through that?  
Ernesto: I hear that a lot from people. And then once ... Here's my philosophy and my belief. All of us have the capability of thinking outside of the box, whether we want to do it or not is the choice. And I really do believe ... Boom, right?  
Roy: Boom. Yeah.  
Ernesto: And I'm telling you, I come across a lot of clinicians, a lot of therapists, and individuals who say, I can't do what you do, I can't do this. And then, once I started training them about ways to look at perspectives about visuals, all of those things, they just run with it. It's so encouraging and inspiring when you find out, you open up a part of your brain that is meant to be creative.  
Roy: Yeah. You make it sound really fun.  
Ernesto: It is fun. I mean, the selfies, the group selfies, the videos that I do, they are meant to show the public that you don't have to have years and years of schooling to be an artist. You are a natural born artist, you just have to move into it.  
Roy: But is this really appropriate for me though? I'm a professional counselor. Shouldn't I be wearing a suit, and I have a very serious look on my face, with like a professional lighting and only talk about critical things?  
Ernesto: Absolutely. You can ... At one piece, right? We all have different parts of ourselves. We've got the professional piece, we've got the piece where we walk in the office, and we've got the suit. We talk smart. We talk smart, right?  
Roy: Talk smart, yes.  
Ernesto: We have our degrees posted on our walls. But there's also that human piece of, you know what? I have this emotion right now. I am creative. What if I feel like coming in with a T-shirt and not looking so professional? I think a lot of people see that that can also be okay.  
A couple of weeks ago I had the privilege of hearing for the third time, Yalom speak. And one of the things that he said is that, the mental health profession is pretty much notorious for letting go of their humanity, letting go of the power of making mistakes and learning from it, right? And just being absolutely human.  
And I think the mental health profession, every time we go to a law and ethics seminar or workshop we get so frightened about being human.  
Roy: Not in my workshops Ernesto. But Okay, [inaudible 00:21:44].  
Ernesto: [crosstalk 00:21:44] I think it's all about just moving into humanness and then allowing the video, or your camera to capture that humanness.  
Rob: So, it sounds like ... a lot of what you convey to people is the same kind of thing, Roy and I tried to convey with regard to terminology in general is that, don't let fear hold you back.  
Ernesto: Absolutely, absolutely. And at the same time, I'm actually working with a lawyer here for California Association of Marriage and Family Therapist, where we lay out some guidelines, and not policies, but guidelines for how many health professionals should conduct themselves online and on social media, right?  
Roy: Oh, that's great.  
Ernesto: But at the same time, within that article, I also talk about the human side of how fun it is to show the community you're a human Brand who you are. And I think that is more of a powerful business card than anything.  
Roy: Yeah. I agree.  
That's an interesting one. Talking about ethics. I mean ... Okay. You got me on the ethics, Ernesto. You know I love Ethics. One thing I've always talked about with this is that, a beautiful thing about private practice is that, it's okay for us to invite the niche that really works for us, or the niche that connects with us. is really kind of what you're talking about though. But in sense of, if I really put out what I really like in the room, then the people who really are getting it the most from me, are most likely to find me.  
In an agency, of course, you need to build the help of whoever comes along, but in private practice it's not always the case. And it sounds like you're talking about being able to really put out, this is who I am as a professional. And, if my ... very personal style is not really what connects to you personally, then that's something that you [crosstalk 00:23:32].  
Ernesto: Absolutely, absolutely. So, the one thing I tell people when they do videos, and when they are aware of their insecurities being in front of the video, the legal and ethic six part of our profession is, "do no harm," right." And, "do not fake it all the way through." So let me just give an example about this.  
If you're doing a video on depression, make sure your one of your call to action is to link the viewers to resources that would help them, right? So a suicide lifeline. So, when you're doing things like how to decrease depression, you've got to make sure that that video does not ... is not a stand at all answer to their problems, right? So you want to make sure, at the end of your video it says, "I've explained ways to decrease your depression. However, depression is much more than you think. I would encourage all of you to reach out to Suicide Prevention Lifeline, or to reach out to your local counselor, or medical doctor, for further assistance, and help."  
Rob: Nice.  
Ernesto: That is the more appropriate way to, one, link the resources to the viewers, and also at the same time, decrease the liability that you have on that video, because obviously, we've got to be careful about stuff like that.  
The other thing is, making sure that you are within the scope of your practice and competence when you're doing videos.  
Roy: What are you trying to say Ernesto?  
Ernesto: And you know, it's amazing, some of the videos that I've seen, I'm like, what the hell is this guy talking about? He could ... he is liable to be sued right now.  
Roy: Oh, no. Okay. Well, so that Botox commercial I did, or I should probably take that down from the [inaudible 00:25:14] website, is that what you're telling me?  
Ernesto: And then the other thing too-  
Rob: You're not a Botox expert Roy?  
Roy: No, no.  
Ernesto: Oh, man.  
Roy: Sorry, [crosstalk 00:25:21].  
Ernesto: Keep that up, I think it looks funny. Exactly.  
Roy: Okay. Good.  
Ernesto: I saw a video once, where a mental health professional is giving legal advice on video.  
Roy: Ooh, ouch.  
Ernesto: An have reached to ... and says, "Well, I'm just giving some, what I feel is good for my business, and my practice." I'm like, "But you are a mental health professional. You don't have that legal stance to be making those ..." What I felt was advice, legal advice. That is no, no.  
Roy: Yeah. That's dangerous.  
There's a lot of dangers here. I mean, I love, Ernesto, how you're talking about it from the perspective really of like, what's a responsible professional thing to do, in the sense of, how are you going to help the people out there not hurt them. And so I'll go and bring in just a liability piece of like, when you give someone actionable health advice, you may actually form a clinician client relationship with someone you've never met, right? If you give legal advice, then you're definitely giving advice outside of your professional scope. When you're doing the media, basically being your professional self in media, you totally can talk about what you do, and you can talk about depression, you can talk about what you know. But giving advice is a whole other level of thing. We've got to be very careful about this.  
Ernesto: Yes.  
Rob: How does someone know what exactly the same need to do? The easy answer is consult with an attorney, and that's the ultimate answer. But how will they [inaudible 00:26:53] exactly where that line is what they need to do. It's not enough to just put a line at the end. This does not substitute for a clinical treatment. So, how do they get a clear picture of what they need to do, and where the spots are, and what they're doing that bring up those concerns.  
Ernesto: Right. I think that if you are a therapist for a long, long time, we have this habit of thinking we know everything about the profession. I really do think that once in a while, we got to go back to the basics, and read up on the legal and ethics of advertising within our jurisdiction. I really do think that we need a refresher, that's one of the reasons why we have these discussions. As much as I love people being confident in front of a camera, and saying whatever they need to say for the community, we also have to be reminded of our boundaries. We get really cocky at times. We think we know, right?  
Rob: No. No, I don't.  I'm perfect.  
Ernesto: [crosstalk 00:27:54] in every single way. But I'm telling you it's  ... I really have to go back and remind myself, okay, wait a minute I'm drawing a boundary here. And I really appreciate a lot of my colleagues to say, hey, you know what? I think that's not within your legal bounds to say that. And I have to go back, either delete, or read up on the by-laws.  
Roy: Oh, yeah. There you go. Nice.  
Rob: So if I'm hearing you right, it's kind of two big things to do. One, make sure you're continuing to check yourself, but also have other people check you?  
Ernesto: Absolutely. That's why I have that Facebook Group for a therapist, because I encourage people to do videos, but when in doubt, post it here first, we'll give you a feedback.  
Roy: Wait. What is this you're talking about? This what?  
Ernesto: The secret Facebook page.  
Roy: Oh, nice. It's secret? How can I find it?  
Ernesto: Oh, I'll send you the link.  
Rob: It's not a secret anymore.  
Ernesto: Not anymore. But basically, all therapists are welcome to go in there, and post videos, make mistakes, bloopers, everything that would make us feel comfortable being in front of a video, and doing videos, and also learning what not to do, and how to do it correctly?  
Roy: Can they post funny cat videos?  
Ernesto: I don't like cats.  
Rob: What? I am shocked.  
Ernesto: I'm more of a chocolate lad golden doodle kind of guy.  
Roy: Okay. So we can't post cats because you don't like cats?  
Ernesto: You know what? If the cat means something within the mental health profession that would help someone, all right, I'm going to allow it.  
Rob: So, Ernesto, you've thrown a couple of ideas out there as far as how people can do ... I mean, I think most people initially think about, well, I can have an intro video on my website. You mentioned video blogging. Are there other ways that therapists can use video to grow their practice, market their practice?  
Ernesto: Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you for asking. All right.  
So, there's professionally done promotional videos. There's also video blogs, right? But there's also videos where you showcase your workshops. If you wrote a book or authored a book, I would say, take a chapter from that book, and just talk a little bit about your book. Oh, my gosh. If you're at an event, like I think last year, a couple of years ago, when we were at the CCA, we did a lot of videos, right? We did a lot of ...  
Rob: Yeah. That was good. It was fun.  
Ernesto: Oh, my gosh, let me do that. I'm going to go to it the next time. So you want to build up hype with a certain event, right?  
Rob: Okay.  
Ernesto: So you want to use it. If you have an open house for your office, you want to do a video saying, hey guys, come to our event. And we're going to do networking, and food will be involved, and you're going to meet a lot of people. I'm telling you, when I did that, I opened up an office out here in Huntington Beach. People mentioned those videos. And any single time that I do an event at my office, on my office suit, they will refer back to that video.  
Rob: Aha.  There you go.  
Roy: Definitely, lead with the Food. Definitely.  
Ernesto: Exactly. Right.  
Roy: We should talk about it.  
Rob: Yeah.  
Ernesto: So [crosstalk 00:31:06] the food, and go, hey, you're missing out guys.  
Roy: I think I remember about CCA, I just want to mention real quick, because you're talking about not being afraid to go for it with video. The thing that struck me is that, you were taping us with your iPhone.  
Ernesto: Exactly.  
Roy: Yeah. It was not ... I mean you had nice lighting, you set up the environment well. But the camera equipment was just a plain old iPhone.  
Ernesto: And you know, the thing is, any of the iPhone now, the seven and up, have cameras in there that I do believe that is made by aliens.  
Roy: Fantastic.  
Ernesto: The technology that they have on this little phone that we're holding blows away any cameras that's out there right now. I mean, you don't have to spend thousands, and thousands, and thousands of dollars to create videos. You're holding it in the palm of your hands. And it's just going to get better, and better, and better. In fact, the new iPhone now, if you hold your phone, about two feet in front of you, it captures one of the best audios out there.  
Roy: Oh, that's nice to know.  
Ernesto: And then you GoPro 6 ... Now, you're getting me excited about technology.  
Roy: Yeah. There's a way for it.  
Ernesto: The GoPro 6, it has an image stabilizer inside of it. And so when you're walking, and you point the camera to yourself, it looks like you're floating it's not shaking.  
Roy: Oh, my God, How much does that cost?  
Ernesto: I think, I spent maybe, about 400 bucks for that. And then, the new phones are coming out now, or that's out, they have image stabilizer within them, so you can walk and do video at the same time.  
Roy: How did they get all this in this tiny phones?  
Ernesto: Aliens, aliens, alien.  
Roy: Aliens.  
You're right. I think you're right there. Okay.  
At this point, I'm wondering if there is another kind of question we might want to ask Ernesto.  
Rob: I think we should make Ernesto look even [inaudible 00:33:01].  
Ernesto: Oh, no.  
Roy: I know. I think so. It just does not look [inaudible 00:33:03] enough good.  
Ernesto: Oh, my goodness. All right. Bring it. What the heck am I putting myself in right now?  
Rob: Describe comes with over a dozen activities that can be used with clients of all ages. Find out more at  
Are you ready?  
Ernesto: Yes.  
Rob: All right, Ernesto.  
Ernesto: I am so nervous right now.  
Rob: Today's describe word is not nervous? So you can relax. Today's Describe word is great.  
Roy: Ah. Nice.  
Rob: What is the difference between good and great?  
Ernesto: Man, that's that's a good one. Can I be silly about it, or I have to be serious?  
Rob: Absolutely.  
Roy: We are very serious around here.  
Rob: You're being human here Ernesto.  
Ernesto: Okay. Great. So a lot of people know that I love going to Vegas.  
Roy: Oh, yeah. That's right.  
Ernesto: I love going to Vegas. And I have a budget going to Vegas. So, the difference between good and great ... Okay. Good is when you have a bank account that is reserved for Vegas money. Great is when you go to Vegas, and you triple that amount in your account.  
Roy: Wow.  
Ernesto: That is great.  
Rob: Is this a hope in a dream or is this an experience?  
Ernesto: Oh, this has been a consistent experience in 2018 for me.  
Roy: In 2018?  
Rob: It's 2018. Today is January, 8th exactly. How many times have you gone already?  
Ernesto: I'm sorry. Well, 2017. Actually, in the New Year's weekend I was in Vegas, and that actually happened to me. Big time.  
Rob: Right. We should do a little disclaimer, just like, "not for investment purposes."  
Ernesto: No.  
Rob: I was also going to say, we were just talking earlier about all these disclaimers you need to put, where you need to [inaudible 00:35:00] about gamblers and all of this.  
Ernesto: Exactly. Oh, gambling, yeah. Yeah, that thing.  
Rob: Well, of course, it is bringing a particular budget as why is gambling ... Responsible gambling.  
Roy: That's right.  
Ernesto: Exactly.  
So at least that comes up for me from good to great.  
Roy: Nice. Run on, man.  
Rob: Nice.  
Roy: Well, I usually feel like ... I always feel like I can talk to Ernesto for hours. I wish we could just get all the guests we ever had, and just have a big party.  
Ernesto: Oh, man. You know what? You know I'm going to fly over if you guys ever did that.  
Roy: Well, then we'll do it. It's going to happen.  
Ernesto: Boom, that's it.  
Rob: So, Ernesto, where is it the people can find you again?  
Ernesto: The best way to look for me is through my website There's tabs in there that will link you to the Facebook business page, to the Facebook secrets, which is not so secrete anymore.  
Roy: Oh, my God. It's a secret.  
Ernesto: On my E-mail at ... even my Facebook is on there as well too. And on my Facebook, I don't have any friends or family, it's basically colleagues, and other students and other professionals in there. Yeah I really truly believe in personal branding and everything that I do on my Facebook and my Instagram and Twitter, are all personal type branding.  
Roy: Nice.  
And so, of course, that's spelled the H-Q-G. Can you spell that again for me, I keep forgetting.  
Ernesto: Oh, my gosh. Let me pull that up.  
Roy: Okay. Great.  
Rob: And, Ernesto, you talked about how you help people. Can you give us the brief rundown on how you can help people if they want to engage you for help with video?  
Ernesto: Yeah, absolutely. So, what I'd normally do is, I get on the phone at least three times just to get to know you over the phone. And try to get a feel for your energy and your personality. That's the main thing about promotional videos. Once, I log that in I, go to your website, I study your website, I study your niche, the colors, or what you like on there. And so I try to reflect that on your promotional video. And on the day of your video, I ask the questions, I tell you make all the stupid mistakes, and all of those things, because I edit them at the end. All you got to do is show up on that day.  
Roy: Nice. Right on in.  
Rob: Nice.  
Ernesto: That's it.  
Roy: Excellent.  
All right. Well, thank you so much for coming, Ernesto. We could not have done this without you.  
Ernesto: Thank you so much for inviting me. And it's good to hear your voice.  
Roy: Yeah, you too.  
Ernesto: Both of you.  
Roy: We'll have to meet up in Denver again, since that's where we meet each other.  
Rob: Unless Ernesto is going to fly us to Vegas with all his winnings.  
Roy: Oh, hey.  
Ernesto: I put myself in the [inaudible 00:37:37] with that one, huh? Yes.  
Rob: Hey, Ernesto. Thank you.  
Roy: Okay. All right.  Bye, bye.  
Ernesto: Bye, bye.  
Rob: Our lucky streak continues Roy, we always seem to look into having people visit just the right time, whom are experts in what we're talking about.  
Roy: It's almost like there's some kind of grand plan behind it all.  
Rob: We've talked a good bit about video in the sense of marketing ourselves, and so forth. And we've already done a full podcast on Tele Mental Health, and incorporating that into our practices, more on a clinical level. But I'm curious to hear ... I think you've got some tips for us on what are some of the technical things to address when you're using video to actually do sessions with clients?  
Roy: I have three tips Rob. Would you like to hear my three top tips on video and online therapy?  
Rob: I would like to hear all three of these tips.  
Roy: All three of these tips. Okay. All right. I'm going to talk about camera placement, sound, and lighting, right? Because these are three big ones going.  
I'm going to [inaudible 00:38:35] by saying that, at Person-Centered Tech, we have a two hour continuing education course on using video and online therapy. It's EPA and NBCC approved. Go check it out.  
Rob: [crosstalk 00:38:46] everything you say is for this?  
Roy: Yeah, yeah. For the courses is two CE hours, and it's about using the video, and online therapy, it's about the proper skills and setups.  
Rob: CEs are cool.  Okay. So, Roy, you say you got three tips here, and you say the first one's about camera placement.  
Roy: Yeah.  
Rob: Okay. What's so big about this tip. You just hold your phone in front of your face, like your taking selfie, and you click the button. What's so big about that?  
Roy: What's really important is that you put the camera right above your face, you're looking up at it, because then will makes your face look thinner. And you want to be as attractive and cute as possible when you're talking to clients, and online therapy. Also doing duck face with your lips really helps a lot. Duck face.  
Rob: Okay. I knew I had to be something [inaudible 00:39:25].  
Roy: Okay. I'm going to have a different tip though. That's a good tip for selfies. To hit the head shot for your website, you want to do it that way. Anyway ... enough of that.  
So it may seem kind of obvious, but I'm actually ... explain a little bit of why you want the camera placed, so that the camera lens is about even with your eye level, right? This is obvious. Or at least, to many people it's obvious. And you want it to be pointing at you.  
Now, I do see people in video conferences a lot, or I've seen clients actually who come on the online therapy with me, who do not have the camera facing them. It will face to the side of them, or something along those lines. And that's because their camera is placed in a different spot from their monitor, all right? The cameras off the side or something like that. Do not do that. That is not going to work. And you don't want your clients doing that. You want the camera placed on top of the monitor, and that's why Webcams are built to clip on the top of your monitor.  
Rob: Wait a second, Roy? But what if I've got a good side. You're telling me, I can't show my good side?  
Roy: Well, you show your good side, Rob, by turning your face, or turning your body to show it. Don't use the camera for that. Do that yourself. See, that's one of my important tips. You got extra bonus tip there.  
Rob: So, tell me more about why it is important to have this high level camera.  
Roy: There's a couple of reasons. Okay. So, one is, you want your clients doing this, and you want to do this, you want both of you to do this. And part of online therapy is coaching the client to do the stuff properly, right? And make sure they know ahead of time how to do this.  
So if it's face on you, and it's about eye level, we get in ... there's a number of reasons, but I'm going to tell you the reason that relates to eye contact, because this is the thing that. I know, recently, people seem to be worrying less about this, but several years ago it was always the big objection we'd hear from people about why online therapy can't possibly work. They'd say, it won't possibly work until there's a camera inside the screen, right behind the clients eyes, so I can make real eye contact. All right, something like that.  
It's a reasonable argument in the sense that, people do identify that when cameras are placed oddly, you can't make eye contact. It looks like you're not making eye contact, which is bad. So that's [inaudible 00:41:27] objection. But it turns out that there's been research on eye contacts, going back to like the 50s, or even 30s, not a video, but just what was the nature of eye contact. And we actually have a lot of research, much of it from, by the way Milton Chen, the creator of VC, doing research on how iconic work across video.  
And he actually tried experiments, like essentially putting a camera in the middle of the screen during his experimentation, when he was a Ph.D. student at Stanford. found things like that don't work. What works better, essentially, if the camera is about at eye level, and the client's eyes are a few inches below the camera, your gaze angle, which means the angle that your eyeballs are tilted at, all right? Your eyeballs are tilted down towards the client, only slightly, because there are a few inches below the camera lens.  
And humans don't perceive downward gaze angle well very strongly. If your gaze angle is downward tilted, no more than five or seven degrees downward, the other person cannot tell that you're looking downwards, right? And so the same thing will come from your client as well. If they're doing the same, it will look to you like they're looking at the camera lens.  
And here's part of why that's important, it's not just that you want your gaze angle to look like you're making eye contact, it's also that, if you look directly at the camera lens, you may not actually look like you're looking at the person, you may look like your eyes are unfocused, right? Because looking at the camera lens may actually mean that the point of your eyes focus is actually not in the right spot, so that the camera sees your eyes looking unfocused, because your actual focus is not right on the camera lens. Does that make sense?  
Rob: It does.  
Roy: Yeah. This is why actors actually learn to pretend to look at a point behind the camera, when they get a look at the camera, and try to look as if they're looking at the audience. They don't actually try to focus on the camera lens, they focus behind the camera lens.And also those cameras have ... ther're much bigger and wider, and they have more zoom ability. The camera person can do a lot more to make it look as if the actor is looking at the audience.  
When you're trying to look at a Webcam, you're most likely just come out either looking like you're unfocused, or looking like you're looking up, because you get to look up at the camera a little bit. Because most of us actually end up placing our cameras a little higher than our eyes, because it's so hard to do such precise placement.  
Rob: Sure. Plus the Monitor gets in the way.  
Roy: Yeah.  The monitor. Because the monitor gets in the way. Exactly, right?  
So if you're looking up, almost any gaze angle upwards is visible. If you can see the bottoms of the whites of your eyes, because your eyeballs are looked up a little bit, that's really visible. So you look terrible if you look at the camera. It's really hard to look at the camera and not look weird, right? It's better to be focused on the client's eyes on your screen, and have that focus be just a couple inches below the camera, depending on how far you are from the camera.The further down the client is from the camera on the screen the further back you want to be.  
Rob: I can see our listener right now-  
Roy: What did you say?  
Rob: I can see our listeners right now, they're all pulling up their Webcams, and turning the video so they can see themselves. And they're all testing this.  
Roy: Yes. Well, that's a way to do it. You can watch your own self on the camera make eye contact with yourself. Right. What's the angle and distance you need to be from the camera to make that look good?  If you have a 22 inch monitor, which you probably should for those first sessions at the very least, although actually 16 inches or so, 13 inch, 15 inch laptop monitors, they're actually fine, just 22 inch is ideal.  
And if the client is about six inches down from the top, if their eyes are six inches down, you want to be back at least four feet from the camera, in order to keep within that five to seven degrees of gaze angle. And that way you look like I'm making eye contact.  
This is all on our course, by the way. I also have an article about this online. But I think we've posted that before, or a link to that before.  
Rob: What you're saying, is you're confirming the fact that eye contact is important in our line of work?  
Roy: Well, yeah, that's that's certainly one thing I'm confirming now.  
Rob: Yes. Right.  
Roy: And that's how you do that.  
There's also the ability to see the full expression of your face. Like if we're looking at you sideways, you're not seeing a full expression of the face. And humans really interact expressively face to face, like facing each other. And if someone is going to turn to the side, that should look ... If someone turns to the side, that indicates something about them effectively. Like the fact that they're looking away from you ... so, they can only look away from you if they initially, if the default is to look at you.  So, which means, you need the camera facing them. So no cameras to the side, camera is at eye level, facing direct you, facing direct at the client. This is important.  
Rob: Excellent tips. So should this be in your informed consent or just part of your initial connection of the client?  
Roy: When you're setting ... I do find it useful to send people a little bit of a sheet for like setting up. Just telling them, hey, please put your camera on top of your monitor at about eye level.  
Rob: Yes. I agree.  
Roy: Some people want to use a tablet computer. I discouraged that where possible, because you want a bigger monitor, because research on her ability to assess someone's affective state by video, the research shows a higher confidence our ability to do that with bigger monitors.  
Rob: Sure.  
Roy: So, like a smaller monitor, like a mobile size monitor, can often be too small to be able to have a really strong reliable ability to assess person that effect. That can partly depend on the client, and what their affect is like. And also on your ability to use monitors. But the bigger it is the better your chances are.  
Rob: So, after I'd connect this all up on my 16 inch HD monitor, to best see my client's affect, what's tip number two?  
Roy: Okay. Tip number two. Sound, right?  
Okay. So right now, we're doing sound. And very importantly, like you and I, before we started recording, had a little bit of an echo problem remember that?  
Rob: Echo, echo, echo. Yes, I do.  
Roy: Echo, echo, echo. Yeah. It's because I'm not using headphones, I'm actually hearing you through my speakers. And I have my speakers behind my microphone, right? That's very important, because if you're talking and your voice comes through, your voice is going to go into my microphone and come back and we're going to get feedback, right?  
So, the problem is, sort of one, the software that we use, and the software that anyone uses for their online therapy, all this software, it all does echo filtering, right? It tries to recognize when they echoes happening and filter it out. But it's not perfect. So, if I turn up your sound, Rob, we'll probably hear you echoing through the microphones. Let me do that. I'm going to turn you up.  
Rob: Turn it up, Roy.  
Roy: Turn it up.  
Rob: Turn it up, Roy.  Oh, my gosh, that's me.  
Roy: [inaudible 00:47:56].  
Rob: I can hear me here me.  
Roy: Ooh, yeah, that's no good. I'm going to turn it back down. Okay. Talk again.  
Rob: There's no more echo. No more echo.  
Roy: Right. And that's because of the levels of sound there. There's a point in which the filtering can't do anymore, because it's just too loud. The way I can completely eliminate that would be to use headphones, right? So your sound doesn't ever get to my microphone at all.  
But if you're using the built in camera and microphone on a laptop, especially a Macintosh laptop, it's already designed to recognize that feedback loop, and filter it out. But if you're playing the other person too loud, they will hear themselves echo. And what's hard is that, I don't hear you echo, only you hear you echo. So you have tell me to [inaudible 00:48:46] something to fix the echo.  
Rob: So you need to check in with your clients.  
Roy: Exactly. Right. Check in with your clients, tell your client, tell me if you're hearing yourself echo because I can't hear it.  
Rob: Well, and ask them what they're seeing too, because ultimately you can't see what they're seeing for sure.  
Roy: That's a good point.  
Well, you want to use a little picture in picture things, so you can see yourself.  
Rob: Right. [crosstalk 00:49:05] But then you're dealing with the Internet, and now  they're getting the same quality, and those sorts of things.  
Roy: Exactly. Yeah. I'm with you there. That's why you want to do both those things.  
Rob: All right. That's the [crosstalk 00:49:18] tip, and you've got another?  
Roy: Lighting. Yeah, a little bit of lighting, right?  
Rob: Yeah, okay.  
Roy: Here's just a little piece about lighting.  
Rob: How are going to demonstrate that one, Roy?  
Roy: Well, we're not going to demonstrate it. I'm gonna have to describe it, right? You know, not as good as showing, but we're doing our best here.  
So, kind of similar to how you want your face onto the camera, if you only have one light source, I mean, clearly, natural light is one of your best light sources, because ideally you want diffuses light. And the reason you want that, is that diffuse light will fill in the nooks and crannies of your face, so it doesn't leave a lot of shadows. Diffused light just sort of gets everywhere, and doesn't cast shadows.  
Now, if you end up taking a desk lamp, desk lamps have a hood on them, right? So that the light shines in a direction. If you shine a desk lamp at yourself, you'll create shadows on your face.  
Rob: And behind you.  
Roy: And behind you. Exactly.  
If you sit in front of a window to get natural light behind you, you're going to backlight yourself. [inaudible 00:50:19] in front of you in a shadow.  
Rob: It will look like a magic.  
Roy: Sorry, buddy?  
Rob: It will look like magic.  
Roy: You will look like magic. That's true. Except, probably not with a Webcam, because Webcams try to correct for things like that.  
Rob: Right. You'll look very dark.  
Roy: Yeah. And they'll just make you look really dark.  
Rob: And it will just make you look really dark. They may not even be able to see your face very well.  
Roy: Exactly. Maybe really obscured in fact. And standing with a client of course, clients may not be thinking of this, and a back lit client is really bad for your ability to assess effect, right? So really don't let them be back lit.  
Ideally, you just want to have a light source that's behind your camera, and that's as diffuse as possible, so if you have a lamp with a hood on it, you can take the hood off, you get a more diffuse light. Although, unless there's a few bulbs on it, a few bulbs on it, a few bulbs on a stick with no hood is going to make a good diffuse light. But one bulb will be more directional, so you get some shadows. Ideally, the natural light coming from behind the camera would be great. You can get that.  
A number of people will talk about using your monitors light as your main light source. That's actually not bad, right? If you asked to come down to it, the monitor light, along with other just sort of diffuse natural light in the room, it's not too bad, unless you wear glasses, like I do. And the monitor just reflects in your glasses, and it obscures your eyes, and looks really distracting. So, just that one light source as diffuse behind the camera can actually do a lot.  
But there are actually some other techniques you can do with household stuff that we talked about in the course.  
We're out of time here, so ... Okay. Yeah, that's my three big tips hastily given.  
Rob: Excellent tips, Roy. Absolutely, possibly-  
Roy: Thank you.  
Rob: Excellent tips. And they can certainly get more detail and hear more tips in your excellent course work on, setting things up correctly for distance class.  
Roy: Yeah. Yes absolutely. All that's in there with demonstrations given by my business partner, Bryan Smith, who actually has a background in lighting.  
Rob: And I heard you say the magic words, that we're out of time again. How does this happen so quickly every time?  
Roy: I don't know. Time passes like sand through the hourglass. So are the days of our lives.  
Rob: I'm having flashbacks now, Roy.  
Roy: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Rob. I didn't mean to.  
Rob: In any case, thank you all for listening.  I think we're going to do another one.  
Roy: Yes. Sounds good. Let's do another one of these.  
Rob: Awesome. All right.  
Roy: See you guys next time.  
Rob: Thank you for tuning into Therapy Tech, with Rob Roy. This episode has been sponsored by and Helping you to use technology to complement your practice in your compliance plan. Episode notes, and helpful resources, can be found at  
Until next time, may you get credit for your second symphony rewritten by machine on new technology.  

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